A MINDFIRE ARCHIVE INTERVIEW:
THESE TWO
INTERVIEWS WITH CARLOS CASTANEDA'S SORCERESSES TAISHA ABELAR
AND FLORINDA DONNER
ARE FLOATING AROUND ON THE INTERNET IN AN INCOMPLETE AND
MISLEADING FORM
I REPRODUCE THEM HERE SO THAT YOU CAN READ THEM AS THEY WERE ORIGINALLY
INTENDED..
There is another more
compelling reason for posting these two interviews.
There is extraordinary and highly valuable spiritual
knowledge in these two
conversations. The kind of knowledge that remains deeply
relevant.
Mindfire: The sorcerer’s
crossing
TAISHA ABELAR
in conversation with
ALEXANDER BLAIR- EWART
In the long years since Carlos Castaneda first informed the world of the
wonders of American aboriginal spirit knowledge, many recognized that a
tradition of great significance had began to reveal itself to the world. Over
the years Castaneda has progressively shown the all-engulfing worldview of the
Toltec's in its reformed state as a work of spiritual art, shaped by the new
seers who have survived the devastating encounter with European colonial
civilization. Taisha Abelar, author of The Sorcerer’s Crossing: A Woman’s
Journey (1992), is one of the new seers whose designation “stalker” balances
the world of the “dreamer.
A L E X A N D E R B LA I R - E WA R T: Can I get you to talk about the complex
subject of “stalking"?
TA I S H A. A B E LA R: There are two ways of approaching this. First, a
general definition is that a stalker is someone who has made an art out of
being unobtrusive. That is, he puts himself in the background, and there’s a
certain training that is involved in order to become unobtrusive. Also,
stalking is designed to give the sorcerer or the practitioner a jolt, and by a
jolt we mean a push or a slight burst of energy so that the “assemblage point”
shifts ever so slightly. The stalkers are aiming to move or shift the
assemblage point, and through that to change their perception of the world.
Perception, of course, can be changed through dreaming, but stalkers do it
while they’re awake. The way sorcerers perceive the world is that they say
that everything we see while we are awake in this reality is a question of the
position of the assemblage point. I’m sure you’re familiar with Castaneda’s
books, and you know what the assemblage point is, but let me just describe it
again. It is the focused awareness point of luminosity on the luminous cocoon
(also understood as the aura).
We believe that the human being’s energetic body is a mass of fibers of light
of infinite number, and each one of those is a specific awareness. They’re not
the light of, say, electricity, but they’re actually the light of awareness.
On the luminous egg shape that makes up the energetic body there is a point of
extra luminosity where the concentration of the person, his awareness, is
assembled and that point of luminosity is about the size of a golf ball, from
the point of view of the “seer” who sees the person’s luminous being. But it
can change size; it can also change position on the luminous body. And where
it is located determines what is perceived, because there’s a matching of the
fibers that are lit up within the luminous body with the fibers that are out
in the universe at large. Sorcerers maintain that the universe as a whole is
composed of an infinite number of energetic fibers, some of which are
perceivable, and others which are absolutely beyond our capacities as human
beings to perceive. So when the position of this assemblage point, this
lighted-up area on the luminous being, matches what is outside, then
perception takes place.
A B E: Would this apply to everyone?
TA I S H A A: We all have our assemblage point at pretty much the same place,
because as an infant is born, by virtue of the fact that he is going to be a
human being, a social person, he has to match the location of his assemblage
point to that of other human beings in the world so that he can interact with
them, perceive the same world. Because our assemblage points are in the same
place, we can have language, we can talk about trees and cars and solid walls
and floors, and we can have a spatial and temporal continuity; we know that
there was a yesterday, there’ll be a tomorrow. All of that has to do with the
position of the assemblage point. Time, our conception of everything we know,
is determined by where that heightened
point of concentrated awareness is located. And if by some anomaly it is not
in the place where the human assemblage point ought to be, then these people
are either sorcerers, (and we’ll talk about that in a moment), or they’re a
candidate for mental illness. You find these latter kinds of people in asylums
because their assemblage points are not fixed at the position where other
human beings have theirs. Therefore they don’t have this intersubjectivity in
terms of perception and they don’t have agreement as to what constitutes
reality. There’s a biological mandate that says that all human beings should
have their assemblage point at this particular position so they can be what we
call human. Animals have it at different places, and that’s what fixes their
species of animal. Trees have their assemblage point at a certain place in
their luminous shell, and that makes them trees.
A B E: So could we also call the assemblage point the position of collective
persona reality agreement?
TA I S H A A: Exactly. It’s our persona, it’s our person. Now this person,
sorcerers say, is not all that we are humanly capable of being. We can be more
than just a social person. In order to be more than what society, or what our
birthright, has given us, we have to move or shift the place of the assemblage
point. We have to move it out of the position where it is stuck. So, not only
is the assemblage point capable of moving elsewhere, but when it does, other
luminous intelligent fibers of awareness are lit up and matched with the
universe, and therefore other realities are constituted. These other realities
are as real and solid as the one we are in now. And it’s
all based on the fixation of the assemblage point. If it moves—and it does; I
it moves in dreams, by itself—we call that dream reality, to be separated c
from the waking state. We acknowledge that there are other realms of
experience, but we always refer to them from the position of everyday
reality. Sorcerers don’t do that. They say that you can move the everyday
reality while you’re awake. You don’t have to do dreaming. Dreaming, of
course, is the control of the movement of the assemblage point in sleep, in
dreams, and the fixation of it elsewhere.
A B E: And you can do it without being insane.
TA I S H A A: Absolutely.
A B E: That in itself is an enormously revolutionary statement.
TA I S HA A: Yes, because our agreement says that crazy people out there have
hallucinations, see monsters and what not, and that they’re somehow deficient
from the point of view of the social order. Yes, they’re deficient in the
sense that they have not stabilized their assemblage point where everyone else
has. Somehow their assemblage point is in flux, it’s constantly shifting.
They’re crazy because they’re hallucinating, and they don’t have the energy to
maintain their assemblage point at any one given position. If they did have
that energy and the control, they would be sorcerers, because they would be
stalking that new position.
ABE: Yes, I see that.
TA I S H A A: So what this all really boils down to is a question of having
the energy to perceive more than what we are allowed to perceive given the
fact that we are born as human beings. Our social order doesn’t allow us to
venture into other realms except through insanity or dreams, which it doesn’t
really count as real anyway. So those are two avenues that are open, but
they’re not really viable avenues. Now, sorcerers say you can move the
assemblage point, provided you have enough energy to fix it at another
position, because you don’t want to end up crazy and absolutely lost in these
worlds upon worlds that they maintain exist out there like the layers of an
onion. So what is needed is control, energy, and fluidity, and what they call
“unbending intent.” Fluidity enables one to shift the assemblage point, to
move away from the given spot that makes us persons, gives us a sense of self.
And that’s where self-importance has to go out the window because as long as
we maintain our allegiance to the self, what we’re really doing is maintaining
our allegiance to that particular position of the assemblage point. We’ll
never be able to perceive anything beyond what is the taken-for-granted
reality. We’re allowed only to perceive what is permissible by our given
position within the social order. So we need fluidity to move the assemblage
point elsewhere, and then we need the stability, the concentration, the energy
to fix it on another position. And this is what sorcery really is.
A B E: Does your essential being hood, your essential humanity, survive this
transition into worlds of alternative reality?
TA I S H A A: Your luminosity and your awareness, which is the assemblage
point, stays intact elsewhere. But it’s not human. It doesn’t have to be
human, and there’s the error that we don’t want to make. No, you leave
everything that’s human behind.
A B E,: Most people would not really want to do that.
TA I S H A A: Exactly, no, they don’t. There’s a lot of interest in our work,
in Carlos Castaneda and don Juan, but they don’t really want it. What they
have is an intellectual curiosity about the possibility that there is
something else out there, because we all have that as human beings.
A B E : If we acknowledge that this sorcerer’s path is really for the very few
people who will actually walk it, why then did you publish your book?
TA IS HA A: One reason is that Carlos Castaneda and Florinda Donner, myself
and Carol Tiggs, are the last of don Juan’s line. They didn’t know at the time
we were being trained that Carlos was going to be the next Nagual. And they
trained us in dreaming and stalking and many of the techniques we’re talking
about. But then it turned out that Carlos is not at all a four- sided Nagual.
A Nagual is one who has four energetic compartments. But he’s a three-sided
Nagual, meaning his mission is different. One of the major differences is that
the Nagual woman who traditionally goes with the previous Naguals group—in
this case Carol Tiggs—first went with don Juan, but then one day she came
back. The Nagual Carlos’s intent or Florinda Donner’s and mine, literally held
her back in this reality. In other words, her assemblage point shifted back so
that she is now with us. Now that’s absolutely unheard of in all the
generations of Naguals and seers in don Juan’s lineage. And because Carol came
back she gave us that energy to actually write about our experiences.
A B E: What does this unprecedented change mean?
TA I S H A A: The designs of the Spirit are absolutely different from what
they were for don Juan. His group followed the rules, they had a certain
training procedure. Although they were abstract, they were in this sense very
concrete. They were practitioners of the things that were handed to them by
the previous group, and they handed down these things to us. But what we
actually keep are only the most abstract methods such as the recapitulation,
the idea of impeccability, the idea of doing or not doing, which amounts to
the total negation of practices or procedures. The Nagual woman Carol Tiggs gave us this extra energy to bring these things
out into the ordinary reality. Otherwise, they would forever have remained
ideas only. And because we practice them, we are the ideas. There’s no
difference between what we say and what we do, and that’s why we are able to
move our assemblage points, because they’re not only abstractions. Our bodies
actually embody these things;
Yes, there are millions of people reading these books and any one of them
could practice and succeed in finding the way. And the reason I say this is
because you don’t need a teacher. Being abstract, the way all of us are in
this last generation, we can see that all you need is a minimal chance, an
idea. So if a person does the recapitulation, the not doing exercises, etc. ,
the Spirit or the Intent itself will guide them and teach them because that’s
already built into the exercises and into the books.
A B E: What are some of the methods by which one can foster and cultivate
stalking energy?
TA I S H A A: There are techniques or devices that sorcerers use, and they
include “not doing” techniques and “recapitulation,” which is the fundamental
technique of enabling the assemblage point to move off its normal position.
There are also methods such as “losing personal history,” which also enables
one to move away from what our fixed idea of the self is. But losing
self-importance is the key because, as I said, as long as we have this idea of
a self, a strong self, an ego, a personality with which we interact with
others in terms of intersubjective agreements, then we are held. You see, the
strength of the world of the social order is so gigantic because of the
agreement of billions of people holding that assemblage point at that
particular spot.
A B E So, at a really crass level, you could call it “peer pressure,” and at a
universal level you could call it “the spirit of the times.”
TA I S H A. A: Yes. At a very individual level you could call it
“self-indulging,” or one’s idea of the self, or bowing to peer pressure. And
then at a larger cultural level there’s language, the family, fundamental
barriers you have to break through—individual, peers, family, culture—and then
some gigantic collective unconscious that holds everything in place. A
sorcerer has to jump out of all of that onto a different level. And then even
behind this collective unconscious you have the biological mandate that we’re
really trapped in
this “ape mold.” We have our biological drive, we need to be social,
gregarious beings because we’re social animals. Solitude is something that
frightens people to death. I mean, that’s one of the killers of neophytes, the
idea that they have to have a solitary journey, a solitary quest, because the
recapitulation is done in absolute solitude. People think, well, they can
meditate together, do things together, as long as they still have a group
consensus. But you see, it’s that very group consensus that prevents the
subtle movement of the assemblage point. So you do have to get beyond that
force, and you have to have the energy, and the energy comes from all the
things that I mentioned before, including impeccability, and also using your
death. You give a death, because you’ll end up giving a death anyway. If you
follow the sorcerer’s path, if you wish to move away from the self, from that
given position of the assemblage point and venture into the unknown, then it
is like dying. The self has to capitulate, and it’s a horrendous feeling,
emotionally, physically. It is like, you know, man against the universe.
A B E: And that death is protracted, isn’t it? I mean, it doesn’t happen in
one miraculous moment. It is something that progressively occurs. It could
take years. When do you know you’ve really done it? When do you know that
you’ve finally died to that old self, or become what is called in the
literature a “formless warrior”?
TA I S H A. A: You have to be formless. You have to not have a self. First of
all, like you say, it’s not a sudden process, although it can be. The movement
of the assemblage point can be in some anomalous cases sudden. A great shock
all of a sudden moves it elsewhere and a different reality is constituted in
front of the person. But that usually doesn’t last because it comes from an
external force, and it usually shifts back. If it does last, the person won’t
know what’s happened, and those are the cases for the asylums, the
institutions. So, a gradual change is best because you have control.
A B E: I take it that drugs, power plants, can also induce this?
TA I S H A. A: Yes, exactly. Under the influence of psychotropic drugs you see
different worlds, and the assemblage point is absolutely blasted out of its
position. But you are not doing that, you don’t have the control. Again it’s
an external agent. The sheer presence of a Nagual moves the assemblage point,
too. His impeccability can move the assemblage point in his students. He
doesn’t have to give them the slap on the back or anything like that. Sheer
energy can cause apprentices to assemble different worlds. But you see, there
again, whenever we were in the presence of don Juan and his people, their
force made us do fantastic things. Those things I write about in my book. But
when I came back to Los Angeles and they weren’t around, there I was with the
force of the social order on top of me, and my assemblage point moved back
into the “first attention.” The tragedy is that unless you move your
assemblage point back to the places where it was under the influence of don
Juan and his people, you barely remember what you did or what those worlds
consisted of. They’re like dreams. You have to store the energy to allow it to
move into heightened awareness, so that you can maintain it there on your own
and venture. And then you-move it further. So it’s a gradual shift.
A B E: How do you store or keep the energy to move your assemblage point?
TA I S H A A: The “recapitulation” is the major method. I just want to mention
that another way of moving it is sheer impeccability, by intending the
movement. Intent is really a line, a force that connects one directly with the
energy out there at large. And because it has intelligence, a guiding order of
sorts, they call it the Spirit, the Eagle. But when man links his personal
energy to the energy out there through impeccable acts, the Spirit itself
moves the assemblage point for him, because in a sense he has relinquished
control. He has relinquished himself, his ego. He has let go and is allowing
the guiding force of Intent to move him. And all of these sorcery activities
that I mentioned, the recapitulation, all the not doings, have the sorcerer’s
intent already linked to them. So a person just has to do these things and let
the Intent take him, and his assemblage point will move, because these are
ancient techniques that have been handed down for generations within don
Juan’s lineage, and they already have that link to the Spirit inherent in
them. We already know of the necessity of storing energy, because that’s the
only way to get out of the mold that we are born into as humans. We always
like to talk in terms of the human ape, because it really puts man in a proper
perspective.
A B E: I accept the ape metaphor very well. But the theory of evolution has
never managed to explain to me how come we have these other capacities in us.
TA I S H A A: What sorcerers say is that we are continually evolving.
Therefore we should not limit ourselves to that ape-like position of the
assemblage point. Within the luminosity of human beings is the potential for
an infinite number of other possibilities. Yes, from the point of view of
evolution we have sort of stopped, encrusted ourselves at the current
position. But the force of evolution continues. Sorcerers are beings who at
one time were human beings. But they have evolved to something else. They are
no longer human beings in the strict sense of the word, because they can move
their assemblage point elsewhere and maintain those positions, and actually
change their form. They don’t have to maintain their human form. They can move
downwards, shift down to the animal level, so they can change shape into
animals, into crows, into birds, or any other animal or entity. Or they can
shift into inconceivable realms that have no physical counterparts, but are
abstractions.
A B E: The literature speaks of two kinds of seers, old seers and new seers.
Can you talk about the difference between the two?
TA I S H A A: There is a distinction between the old sorcerers and the new
sorcerers in don Juan’s lineage, between his teacher the Nagual Julian and don
Juan’s apprentice, the new Nagual Carlos Castaneda. These latter are
modern-day sorcerers, and what they’re interested in is this evolution towards
the abstract, away from any of these downward shifts that are so easy to do in
dreaming when the assemblage point by itself finds these positions. And for
that reason all of the people associated with Carlos Castaneda are university
graduates, educated, clear thinkers (hopefully). I mean, that is one of our
tasks. An actual sorcery task is to be able to think coherently, to think
clearly, to see where we are as human beings, and to see what our potential
is. We try to get to this level of actual truth by using reason in its
strictest sense, not in the shoddy sense of reasoning something and then
acting in some other totally contradictory fashion, which is what human beings
do.
A B E: One meets people who have abandoned reason and logic, and the natural
functions of the mind, and who end up in a kind of twilight zone of not really
being able to derive any clarity about anything.
TAI S HA A: Yes, and that was one of the major pitfalls of the old sorcerers,
who emphasized dreaming techniques to shift the assemblage point, and who did
not have the stalker’s technique to balance that out. It’s a question of
balance, because unless you have the sobriety and the control, what’s the
point of moving the assemblage point? You move it and you get lost in those
realms and you’re never able to return to this level. Stalkers have that
control. In stalking you create the reality wherever you are by creating
structure, by imputing order, by reasoning. You can reason even if you’re in a
totally different realm. You can still maintain your awareness. You try to
bring order to the inconceivable perceptions, the chaos that is the universe,
and the prerequisite for shifting into different realities is the ability to
summon the energy needed to keep your awareness intact while in them.
A B E: Can you talk in a more specific way about the “recapitulation”?
TA I S H A A: Recapitulation is a very ancient technique handed down by the
old sorcerers in don Juan’s lineage, but it was sort of forgotten by them
because they were more interested in power, in dominating people. The furthest
thing from their mind was the idea of losing self-importance. But the new
sorcerers revived this technique and we now consider it really the most
fundamental technique in sorcery of all the techniques we learned for moving
the assemblage point. And you don’t have to be a “sorcerer’s apprentice” or
anything like that. Anyone can do it.
It is a technique for erasing the idea of self in terms of all the memories
and associations with people that one had during one’s lifetime. When one
interacts with people energy is exchanged, and through deep emotions it’s left
in the world and in people. So the strategy is to regain that energy so that
you can have, it all with you now, in the present. Why leave it floating
around in some mysterious past that holds you fixed in the place where you now
are?
What you do is you find a place of quiet and solitude, an enclosed space
preferably—the sorcerers used to have their recapitulation boxes where they
would bury themselves, or go into caves—a place that encloses the energetic
body so there is some pressure put on the luminous self. But before you sit
you make out a list of everyone you’ve ever encountered throughout your
life—your family, associates, etc. This takes some doing, some remembering,
which in itself loosens the assemblage point. And you work backwards in time.
Actually, ‘you make two lists. You start with your sexual experiences because
sorcerers say that’s the fundamental energy that’s lost out there, and if you
retrieve that, then that will give you the boost to do your other people.
So you have your two lists and you sit in your recapitulation box and start
the breathing. This third element, the breath, is very important because the
breathing is what disentangles the energy. Our interaction with others is done
with our energy body and the breath moves the luminous fibers. You start by
putting your hand on your right shoulder, and when you
have visualized perfectly the scenes of people and places in your mind, then
you place your chin on your right shoulder and inhale, turning your head to
your left shoulder. You then exhale moving your head back to your right
shoulder, and then bring your head to center. It’s like a sweeping of the
scene. You sweep the whole scene, person, place, whatever, and you pull back
whatever was left out there on the inhale, and exhale whatever of that other
person’s energy was left in you. So you detach yourself from that particular
encounter, and you do this with everything.
After you’ve done this for your whole life, you’ve detached pretty much from
your remembered past. This is not meant to be a kind of self-analysis, but you
can’t help seeing in the way you act and behave and what is expected of you a
pattern forming. And with the breath you break that pattern. So what you
essentially want to do is move into formless, .pattern-less behavior, which is
the way a sorcerer acts. He’s absolutely fluid. Which brings us back to
stalking. A stalker is someone who makes himself unobtrusive. He has no
pattern, nothing to assert, no point to make, no demands, no desires. And all
of this is eliminated through the recapitulation.
A B E: There is also something called “stopping the internal dialogue” in this
tradition. Can you talk about that?
TA I S H A A: The way these patterns are ingrained in us is through the
internal dialogue, in which we keep repeating certain things to ourselves
like, “Oh, I’m no good,” or “They don’t like me,” or “I have to be like this
to prove myself,” this constant flow of thoughts or reaffirmations of the
self. The sorcerers say that you need to put a stop to that continual
reinforcement of the self, which fixes that position of the assemblage point.
When you begin to elongate these moments of silence by shutting off the
internal dialogue, then you have the power that comes from sheer silence. That
in itself will allow the assemblage point to move from your everyday state
into heightened awareness.
So, by doing these techniques the seer within us gets to break out. There are
lots of techniques like these in Carlos Castaneda’s books, for example,
certain gazing techniques. You can do a match technique where you just hold up
the flame for, a moment, gaze at it, then douse it, but not completely. Then
turn it upside down and hold it in your left hand and look at the flame as it
burns the bottom of the match. This quiets the mind. You can do any sort of
minor meditation techniques to accomplish this, but I wouldn’t recommend that
you go heavily into Oriental meditation techniques because
you’re already doing the recapitulation and you don’t want to get fixed into
any form All we’re doing now as abstract sorcerers is a minimum of technique
so that we can get away from the self. We don’t want to get into the area of
ego enhancement, i.e., “now we’re meditators,” etc.
A B E: So you don’t want to build up an image of yourself, even as a spiritual
person?
TA I S H A A: No, you don’t want to add to that, and when you look at how much
you have to get rid of, you’ll be kind of careful not to add more. [ And
that’s where impeccability comes in. You want to maintain your daily behavior
on an impeccable level, and that means you just do your humble best. We’re no
longer interested in reasserting the ego or the self, or defending the self. The
brunt of our daily energy really goes into defense of the self because it’s
attacked left and right, and the mind rallies like lightning to try to patch
up the ego’s wounds. But the sorcerer lets it go. Don Juan had a good adage.
He said, “Eliminate the self and fear nothing.” If you don’t have a self,
there’s absolutely nothing to fear, because all of our fears and
disappointments come from our idea of the self, whether positive or negative.
So the only thing that the modern sorcerer or stalker is really dependent on
is something so abstract that he calls it the Spirit, the Unknown. By getting
rid of the self, they give the self to the Eagle as a token. They give
themselves in a symbolic death, and in that sense the Eagle, they say, allows
the impeccable warrior to escape.
A B E: And the old seers were not able to do this?
TAI S HA A: That’s right. When the old sorcerers did dreaming, they had very
heavy ego and so they got lost and trapped in different levels of dreaming.
They had their ideas of power and they became obsessive, so they weren’t able
to move out again, because they were too heavy.
The modern-day stalker is not obsessed with anything. He treats the whole
world as “controlled folly,” which means that there’s order, there’s
structure, but it’s not to be taken seriously because there are other orders,
other structures, an infinite number of layers to this onion of reality, and
he can go elsewhere. But wherever he is, he creates his order and his
structure, and when the Spirit moves him, something moves the assemblage point
and he moves elsewhere. He’s impeccable in his dreams and in this everyday
reality if and when he’s here.
A B E: Would you say it’s a major accomplishment on the part of the would be
seer when they reach a point where they are no longer concerned with whether
or not they are liked?
TA I S H A A: Yes, that’s a major accomplishment. The sorcerers have a theory
about the energy you were given at your own conception. If the parents liked
each other, sexually I mean, if they had a very grand time, a great sexual
experience, when that child is conceived it will have this great burst of
energy. And he may not care whether or not people like him because he has this
intrinsic sense of energetic well-being. But, if one of the parents is
bored—don Juan always called them “bored conceptions”—or if they just went
through the motions of having sex because they were married and it was the
thing to do on Friday night, then that child will come into the world with a
real disadvantage. He will always feel that something is missing. He wants his
peers to like him, he wants mama to like him, and she may not even like him at
all.
Sorcerers can see how energetic a luminous being is. They can see how the
energy moves. In some people it’s very sluggish, stagnant, and of course that
expresses itself in a very meek or low-level zest for life. In others it’s
strong. Everything to them is a challenge. They dominate people naturally,
have this charismatic, almost mesmeric effect on others, and they are not as
needy as other people.
A B E: Of course, then that person who has all that energy will attract all
kinds of needy people who want to suck on. it. [
TA I S H A A: The sorcerers say that the self is really a metaphorical dagger
that we stab ourselves with. But it’s all right as long as we bleed in
company. As long as there are others bleeding with us we’re okay. [ And I have
to include myself in that category because absolutely I was not a product of a
zestful union. And you see these demons in the recapitulation, which is never
really done, because it has to be tried and tested in the everyday world. You
can't just escape into the desert and do it, and then feel good and that’s the
end of it. Get back with your mother, your father. What do they do to you for
you to react like the little girl, the little boy that wants mommy to do his
laundry, to take care of his tummy? We still have those feelings. So,
recapitulation just by itself is not enough. Stalkers stalk the Self, and so
when they’re with people in the world, they’re constantly stalking themselves
and seeing what’s happening.
